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Sunday, 3 February 2013

Pyridoxine – Toxicity and Deficiency, and the balance between B6 and protein.





You could make an argument that the pyridoxine form of vitamin B6 is the only really dangerous vitamin supplement. Overdosing on anything else is unlikely if you stick to recommendations, but pyridoxine neuropathy is insidious and persistent and may happen at intakes as low as 200mg/day, and quite possibly lower (case history reporting neuropathy from 100mg/day taken for 10 years).

Axonal pathology is also a feature of the neuronopathies, toxic states in which the primary injuries are found in neuronal cell bodies. This is exemplified by pyridoxine neurotoxicity, where there is sublethal or lethal damage to larger cytons in the sensory ganglia, with failure of such neurons to maintain their axons.



In this brilliant study, the 5 volunteers were the study authors: a detectable neuropathy was induced by a 12mg/Kg/d dosage after 7 months.
However, other factors can increase sensitivity, especially protein deficiency.

Large doses of pyridoxine cause injury to the primary sensory neurons in trigeminal and dorsal root ganglia of animals and patients subjected to megavitamin therapy. The increased hazard to subjects with reduced renal excretory function has been explored previously. In the present work, the neurotoxicity of pyridoxine for rats was found to be increased by dietary protein deficiency. A mere 3 or 7 days of pretreatment with either of two protein-deficient diets were sufficient to accelerate and intensify the clinical neurological signs and histological lesions from pyridoxine injections. These results are caused, at least in part, by loss of body weight, decreased protein binding in serum and decreased consumption of water and decreased volume of urine, which reduce the urinary losses of the toxicant. The vitamers related to pyridoxine (pyridoxal, pyridoxamine) and the coenzyme (pyridoxal 5-phosphate) did not cause clinical signs or lesions similar to those produced by pyridoxine even when injected in maximum tolerated doses. Neither a protein-deficient diet nor bilateral nephrectomy changed the results with the vitamers.

Note that the vitamers (the animal forms of pyridoxine) and the co-enzyme P-5-P (PLP) were not toxic.

I strongly recommend using only vitamin supplements that contain P-5-P or one of the vitamers. A much lower dose can be effective if P-5-P replaces pyridoxine.
The relationship of B6 to protein is important because P-5-P is the coenzyme for most reactions involving amino acid metabolism or catabolism. To make niacin from tryptophan, nitric oxide from arginine, serotinon from tryptophan, cysteine from methionine via homocysteine, these and many more reactions of that type all require P-5-P. It is also required for glycogenolysis and phospholipid synthesis.
Meat, fatty fish, potatoes and bananas are all good B6 sources, but processed meat can be very low in B6 relative to how much protein it supplies. Low B6 status is one of the more common deficiencies detected when populations are studied. Could this be one of the reasons there is always an epidemiological difference between red meat and processed meat? Or could it just be that people who eat processed meats tend to have a greater appetite for, or tolerance of, processed rubbish in general?
The activation of pyridoxine to P-5-P requires riboflavin and magnesium, and deficiencies of these 2 nutrients, deficiencies which are in all conscience common enough (B2 is easily destroyed by UV light) could in theory also sensitize one to pyridoxine toxicity.

There are many features of amino acid metabolism in cirrhosis that suggest that activation of dietary pyridoxine to P-5-P by liver has become inadequate, and/or that the breakdown of P-5-P is excessive.
After administration of pyridoxine there was a significant increase in the plasma PLP level over a 2- to 12-hr period, after which the concentration returned gradually toward the initial value. The area under the concentration/time curve was from 2 to 8 times smaller (P less than 0.002) in the patients with liver disease. To assess possible mechanisms of this change, 5 mg of PLP were intravenously administered to the various patient groups and the pharmacokinetics of the disposition were assessed. The initial and steady state volumes of distribution of PLP were comparable in cirrhotics and controls (P greater than 0.05), but the clearance of plasma PLP in cirrhotics was much faster (63.0 +/- 7.4 versus 31.7 +/- 2.7 ml per min, P less than 0.004). Similar findings were obtained in the other liver disease subjects


There is an inverse association between dietary B6 and deep vein thrombosis.

Our study indicates that low vitamin B6 is associated with an increased risk of recurrent VTE. Until recently, the thrombotic risk associated with low vitamin status was entirely attributed to impaired homocysteine metabolism. But since doubts have been raised about the causal role of homocysteine in thrombotic disease,4 other functions of B vitamins need to be considered. Vitamin B6 is a co-enzyme in the metabolism of aminoacids, carbohydrates, neuro-transmitters and lipids,12 and administration of vitamin B6 inhibits platelet function.13 Low vitamin B6 has also been related to elevated C-reactive protein levels and other markers of inflammation,14,15. In fact, patients with chronic inflammatory diseases, who are at heightened risk of VTE, exhibit low vitamin B6 levels.16

From personal experience, I can testify that years of overuse of pyridoxine, especially by someone who is not eating regularly, can result in long-lasting sensory problems even if the doses taken are those normally prescribed or recommended on line. This is not an exclusive problem of the supplement industry, as most of the pyridoxine I have used has been a prescription medication.
Pyridoxine neuropathy is likely to be missed in diagnosis and could even be misdiagnosed as early MS (the difference is that pyridoxine toxicity affects the body symmetrically, MS is asymmetrical). The visual disturbance is interesting and unusual; objects are doubled in the horizontal plane, like watching a 3d movie without the glasses. I still notice this slightly when I look at spires or poles in the middle distance, although the other symptoms have completely cleared, albeit very slowly. Ketogenic dieting was helpful. At one time I could barely read.

Pyridoxine has a fascinating effect on dream recall (very tempting for an opiate addict). Take enough of it, and the very dream changes; a dream that allows you completely perfect recall can be a very vivid but barren dream, with bare floors, little furniture, simple and repetitive architecture, and little in the way of characters or events. The orthomolecular theory is that inability to remember one’s dreams is indicative of pyridoxine deficiency. It is certainly corrected by B6.
Maybe, like DVT, it is caused by a diet too dependent on processed meat and refined carbohydrate.


17 comments:

tess said...

well, THAT is interesting -- i've always dreamt a lot, but rarely remember it well.... adding epimedium to my supplement list has improved my recall, i believe. i wonder if it contains B6? wikipedia, here i come....

George Henderson said...

If it up-regulates nitric oxide, that would be through a PLP dependent reaction (which also relates to DVT).
The role of B6 in maintaining brain circulation might be how that works (I wonder if ginkgo has a similar effect on dreams).
The high-dose B6 dream effect is weirder though. Memory is boosted at the cost of creativity. Instead of remembering emotions and impressions, one remembers bare facts, layouts, like the difference between a gothic painting and a schematic map of the same mountain.

George Henderson said...

I should point out that B6 deficiency is supposed to suppress recall to the extent that one has no memory of dreaming at all for months on end.
One tells others "I do not dream".
To dream , know it, but forget is more-or-less normal.

tess said...

you just burst my bubble -- me normal? ;-)

majkinetor said...

Any reference for dreaming ?

I found this:

Effects of pyridoxine on dreaming: a preliminary study

The effect of pyridoxine administration on melatonin secretion in normal men

The first mentions pffeifer paper from 1975 however, I couldn't obtain full paper to see full reference.

100mg of B6 is totally safe. No need to take more of it, such dose is even therapeutical with some problems likes sciatica, CVD problems etc.

How much did you take for years ? Did you take complex or solo ?

George Henderson said...

I would have picked it up from Carl C. Pfeiffer; I don't know if it's been tested but I consider it to be experientially testable by most people.

I don't know that 100mg is safe, it may not be if someone is eating poorly and uses it daily for years. I don't know what amount is safe for everyone. There's no need to take pyridoxine, P-5-P is far more effective.
I took 100-300mg daily intermittently (not constantly, but possibly on most days) for about 25 years. I took other supps a lot of that time, esp. other B complex and C but not magnesium.
It took about 5 years to get over, and I am still sensitive to very small amounts (there is even some sensitivity to P-5-P) which affect my vision.
I wouldn't take more than 2mg P-5-P now, and only occasionally in a bit broken off a multivitamin.

I think it is a good principle to minimize exposure to neurotoxins, for example acrylamide, MSG, regardless of the certainty of available safety data.

100mg pyridoxine probably safe as short-term treatment, but P-5-P or pyridoxal/pyridoxamine would be better for a long-term B6-dependent condition.

majkinetor said...

Or its just an individual problem.

25 years of usage of very high dose and such side effect, I guess it would be proof of safety by majority.

B6 vs P-5-P is matter of availability and even prescription.

I don't recall dreams almost never. It was always like that. I will have to try high dose for a month of so. Its unlikely its symphtom of deficiency since I use multivitamins and B complexes (among other things) for few years now almost every day. B6 since I started low carb, higher protein diet. In some papers daily dose is listed per g of protein. Unless I have some genetic malfunction in B6 uptake. I am doubtful that it represents deficiency since very high dose is required for dream recall (looks like >2*100mg)

George Henderson said...

If I hadn't been skeptical about the possibility of pyridoxine neuropathy, I'd have realized it was happening much sooner - and if I'd stopped immediately I noticed unusual sensations, I'd likely have had no problem.
0.02 mg per G protein is the ratio on the Linus Pauling Foundation resource (good nutrient fact sheets there).

B6 on dreams is like a pharmacological effect. 100-200mg nocte for a week should produce it. Just don't get hooked on it like I did!
Interestingly dream recall would return intensified at nightfall - indicating melatonin was involved.

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Anna C said...

To George Henderson about pyridoxine toxicity:
Hi, I’m a new one here. I got interested in your case. Did you really take 100 to 200 mg of pyridoxine a day for 25 years?! I’m shocked as I took 200 mg only for 3 months and I got severely hit by it. It’s been more than 5 months now and I’m still symptomatic. I feel dizzy, which is so scary to me, and I’ve got a feeling of burning in my arms and legs, which gets worse at night. I feel my legs from knees to ankles tight or stiff a bit. I wonder if you’ve experienced anything like that. Anyway, it’s comforting to me that you got your symptoms over, though 5 years is a lot of time. I’d be grateful if you could share your personal experience on pyridoxine toxicity with me. Greetings from Anna

George Henderson said...

Hi Anna, that sounds bad.
My sensations were - muscular weakness; a brushing sensation on my skin; loss of feeling, including hot and cold; pins and needles; and a type of double vision blurring and also at times very fuzzy vision. At times I had other sensations but can't be sure they were due to pyridoxine.
What helped was -
avoiding pyridoxine in supplements or fortified foods.
Taking alpha-lipoic acid; this made me feel a lot better, but it's tricky because it can increase the need for B1, B2 and biotin after a while, these are more expensive if you're avoiding B6. But they probably help too, especially B1.
Following a ketogenic diet for a while, including consuming coconut flesh, coconut oil and coconut cream as regular items of diet.
But this still takes time; these are just the things I noticed were associated with relatively sudden and significant improvements.

Anna C said...

Hi,thanks for your answer and advice concerning supplements. I've got some more questions if you don't mind.I've read that 200 mg of pyridoxine intake a day for more than 40 days can lead to pyridoxine dependency syndrome.I must say I experienced very hard days when quiting pyridoxine myself - my neuropathy-like symptoms rapidly got worse during the 1st month of pyridoxine withdrawal.I developed severe insomnia,leg cramps and anxiety then, too. Did you have such a strong withdrawal reaction yourself? I'm desperately looking for some rational explanation for my dizziness and I just wonder if it's possible to get addicted to pyridoxine and have problems after its rapid withdrawal.Do you think the brain can't function properly without high pyridoxine doses it had been used to? And that's why this dizziness? Do you think p-5-p form of B6 in some reasonable intake could help if this is the case? This is just my theory but I'm a laic. Doctors are not much helpful once you've got clean head MRI.I can see you've got extensive knowledge and you experienced pyridoxine toxicity yourself so your suggestions can be of great value to me. Anna

George Henderson said...

First I want to check you're not on any statins, that could produce some of those symptoms and if so it would be serious.
Dependency could be due to needing high levels of some product of pyridoxine, such as serotonin or NAC, or excess consumption of vitamin-free proteins (protein powders, processed meats). I haven't heard of it myself but it's possible. I found pyridoxine psychologically addictive for sure, there's no other explanation for why I used so much of it.

Using a little p-5-p now and then won't do any harm. It blurs my vision like pyridoxine but occasional use of very low doses (1-3mg) hasn't stopped me getting better. It's worth trying.

I don't know how you eat but I would recommend following the ketogenic version of the Perfect Health Diet, with 50g daily carbohydrate and some coconut oil. This can help rebuild nerves. And avoiding food toxins from grains and legumes, which might be making things worse. But read the PHD book, you don't want to starve youself. Ketogenic dieting should be the first thing tried for neurological problems as it can very often reverse them fairly quickly.

George Henderson said...

I don't remember any withdrawals, but I was pretty messed up and there was a lot going on at the time...I had after-effects rather than withdrawals.

George Henderson said...

Pyridoxine depenency only exists in the literature as a genetic condition causing seizures which can be relieved by pyridoxine. Very likely ketogenic dieting would help as well.

Anna C said...

I’m not on statins. It’s all so weird. It seems everyone’s reaction is different.
I’d like to try the ketogenic diet you’ve mentioned. I’ve read something about Perfect Health Diet and its ketogenic form but not in details. Please give me some practical tips. Did you mix coconut oil with milk and drink it with meals? What are the proportions? And one more – I wonder where I could buy it cause I don’t think I’ve come across it before.
I've tried something different instead. I don’t know whether you‘ve heard about flax oil and dr Budwig’s diet but in Poland, where I live, it’s a popular unconventional treatment for many diseases, including neurological ones. I’ve been on it but probably too short (2 months) to see any difference.I guess, this oil is forbidden in the ketogenic diet as it's plant oil, correct me if I'm wrong.
I think I should try alpha lipoic acid you’ve suggested so I’d like to ask you how much of it you took a day to feel better ? I’ve read about different dosages, like from 200 to 600 mg a day.
Thank you in advance. Anna

George Henderson said...

The reaction to pyridoxine can be modified by other factors; protein, magnesium, and B2 should help it at the time, I was taking these after a while.
I really think buy the Perfect Health Diet book, get it out of the library, or study the website, as there is more too it than just restricting the diet. Coconut cream/ milk can be used (this is about 25% fat or should be). Dairy fat is also ketogenic, about half as much as coconut oil.
I don't see much reason why the Budwig diet would work. What you need most is to be well nourished by eating lots of real, nutrient-dense and non-toxic foods that contain nutrients that help nerves to rebuild, while in a ketogenic state that promotes them healing.
It is not a diet in the sense of feeling hungry or losing weight that's needed, nor need it involve special foods (you could do it without coconut, but coconut helps).
Meat, fish, fats, eggs, offal, cheese, roots and (a little) tubers or rice, leafy greens, (a little) fruit, vinegar and spices, some tea, coffee, and dark chocolate are the main things. No sweets, no oils (other than coconut and olive), no grains (other than white rice) or legumes.
A few supplements that are listed in the book and on the website, but no regular use of multivitamins.
Adequate vitamin D and vitamin K2 are important for nerves and will probably need to be supplemented, magnesium too (this will help with cramps; also, get enough iodised salt). But the book says it all so much better! Chapter 13.